tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6135821839792630912.post6307583956937303588..comments2023-10-31T10:44:29.133-04:00Comments on The Stone Age Techie: What is a Real Education?Karenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09033206940045546960noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6135821839792630912.post-57646654323038666652010-03-09T10:29:24.000-05:002010-03-09T10:29:24.000-05:00I meant to say in my previous comment: thanks for ...I meant to say in my previous comment: thanks for the link to the Alliance for Childhood. That pdf advocating for play in kindergarten is great!Fanny Harvillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02880256976773724224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6135821839792630912.post-78488116076950399942010-03-09T10:25:03.963-05:002010-03-09T10:25:03.963-05:00I think Flanagan's piece is wrongheaded on jus...I think Flanagan's piece is wrongheaded on just about every level, and that's how I almost always react to her writing. For me the worst was her book "To Hell With All That," in which she smugly poses as a stay-at-home-mom (and castigates working moms) even though she worked from home with the help of nannies providing her children's care! See a great review here: http://www.salon.com/books/review/2006/04/12/flanagan/index.html?source=search&aim=/books/review<br /><br />I appreciated your thoughtful response to her essay here.Fanny Harvillehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02880256976773724224noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6135821839792630912.post-60509221927536827072010-01-29T16:46:17.037-05:002010-01-29T16:46:17.037-05:00this one is truly crazy! i mean, i'm a tree-hu...this one is truly crazy! i mean, i'm a tree-hugging, local farm supporting, plant-loving type as you've ever known! but i've also read on my own ALL the classics and have 11 years of undegree'd scholatics, simply because i love learning! my dear son's seizures have springboarded me into over 3000 hours of research, for goodness sakes!<br /><br />yet, as much as i disagree with the author's view of classical learning v. natural learning/gardening, i hafta agree with her positive intent. it's how i'm now bent. (whoa! that's a rhyme! isn't that so sublime?!? and again!!!...) love, your friend...<br /><br />~mister dadToto Tayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14581407559742515122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6135821839792630912.post-53994545819669832552010-01-22T23:38:18.436-05:002010-01-22T23:38:18.436-05:00Karen, when you said, "I hate the idea that m...Karen, when you said, "I hate the idea that my kids can learn in the way that's best for them, and your kids can, but the vast majority of kids cannot" I about cried. I feel the same way. A friend of my daughter told us about a time in 4th grade or so when he was forced to sit alone in a room for three days when he was accused of cheating. My blood boils at that sort of thing, and to think it happened in our sleepy little town! Some of the stuff I hear borders on child abuse, not to mention the subtle mind-numbing that leads to our apathetic college freshman class! (my hubby is a college professor, and his life if full of them). Thanks for reminding us all why we're so glad we can homeschool our kids.Jenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05157041381940903012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6135821839792630912.post-73119024276616095882010-01-19T23:26:11.819-05:002010-01-19T23:26:11.819-05:00Sparklee - Sorry to have you spluttering before br...Sparklee - Sorry to have you spluttering before breakfast :-)<br />I read this fairly early on in the day, which I think was better than later. I had it all (well, mostly) out of my system by about four in the afternoon, and I just know that I wouldn't have been able to sleep if I'd read this in the evening!<br /><br />Fun Mama - thanks for stopping by! I agree with you totally, and am going off right now to read some of the rebuttals at Salon. Wasn't that the site where the dad whose twins are homeschooled wrote that great, funny, and moving article about how homeschooling is viewed by the general, non-hsing population? I think so.<br /><br />:-)<br />KarenKarenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09033206940045546960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6135821839792630912.post-15193512314008759812010-01-19T14:23:08.840-05:002010-01-19T14:23:08.840-05:00I haven't read the original article in the Atl...I haven't read the original article in the Atlantic yet but I've read several rebuttals (at Salon, mostly). I just wanted to add that LA is not the only city with an inner city. Not all inner cities have access to the fresh produce that earlier commenters mentioned. The lack of fresh, healthy food is unfortunately not a myth everywhere. I think it's important for ALL our children to be aware of where our food comes from and to appreciate the process. As living beings, there are not many things more important to our survival than food. I found your blog through your comment on The Snail's Trail.Fun Mama - Deannahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13482181499301423093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6135821839792630912.post-18177714170177910482010-01-19T09:25:33.538-05:002010-01-19T09:25:33.538-05:00Wow. Wow. I don't even know what to say. Th...Wow. Wow. I don't even know what to say. Thanks for the link and the great post. I haven't finished my coffee yet, but I'm revved up for my day now! <br /><br />SparkleeSparkleehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05738282395161764356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6135821839792630912.post-53433890772165902082010-01-19T00:08:00.888-05:002010-01-19T00:08:00.888-05:00Alicia - I know just how you feel. It's funny...Alicia - I know just how you feel. It's funny, but this is just something I can't let alone. I hate the idea that my kids can learn in the way that's best for them, and your kids can, but the vast majority of kids cannot, they have somebody standing over them saying, 'learn this!' 'No, learn this!' 'They are all wrong, learn this!' - and, while everyone stands around debating, the kids are learning to hate learning.<br /><br />I hate that more than I hate reading, and discussing, stuff like this.<br />:-)<br />KarenKarenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09033206940045546960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6135821839792630912.post-69699886887299226012010-01-19T00:00:49.126-05:002010-01-19T00:00:49.126-05:00I can't bear to read that sort of stuff often....I can't bear to read that sort of stuff often. I suppose I ought to and then leave thought provoking comments and try to change the world, but sometimes I prefer to just stay in my cozy little world of sensible, nice people. :)Magic and Mayhemhttp://magicandmayhem.homeschooljournal.net/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6135821839792630912.post-90668666665623157422010-01-18T23:52:11.048-05:002010-01-18T23:52:11.048-05:00Jena - yes! Harder to 'teach,' but so muc...Jena - yes! Harder to 'teach,' but so much more important than the ability to regurgitate facts when prompted. The education system is totally backwards, and eliminating gardening isn't going to fix it.<br />:-)<br />KKarenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09033206940045546960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6135821839792630912.post-22631245122693560862010-01-18T23:27:05.103-05:002010-01-18T23:27:05.103-05:00Awesome post. I can understand wanting kids to do ...Awesome post. I can understand wanting kids to do well on tests to get into college and escape whatever poverty they might be stick in, but HOW you get there is up for debate. To think that institutionalizing kids and drilling them with facts and requiring time-filling busy work is the way to do it is very narrow-minded. Intelligence is so much for than knowing facts, and most HS grads can't remember basic things they spent HOURS on in school anyway. You're so right--creativity, the excitement of figuring out things on your own, just knowing HOW to figure some things out--that's a higher level of intelligence that government institutions have a hard time "teaching." But gardening? Now there's a learning environment rich with opportunities. :)Jenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05157041381940903012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6135821839792630912.post-56722434411355995322010-01-18T23:21:36.655-05:002010-01-18T23:21:36.655-05:00Susan - I see your point about her point (if you g...Susan - I see your point about her point (if you get my point:-), I just think that her idea about how to go about breaking the cycle of poverty is not really a good solution because 12,960 hours of book learning crammed into twelve years, especially if it's not stuff you are interested in, puts the student in another kind of hell altogether. It seems like it would just produce rebels who do everything they can to get away from school or anything that has to do with school, know what I mean? Then again, I have never truly wanted for anything, I kind of aspire to guinea hen and tarte tatin, and so maybe I am in no position to say.<br /><br />I am glad that the whole 'no fresh, healthy food in the hood' thing is a myth, I'll tell you that! We go blueberry picking in summer at this place hidden in the middle of many acres of woods, and English is the least common language you hear while you're there, I think because people who weren't raised on Cocoa Puffs and chicken nuggets find ways to get real food, and they would do that even in the hood.<br /><br />Cristina - condescending and insulting, that's exactly it! Nearly every line seemed to belittle anyone who disagrees with her, and I think that makes it harder to see any valid points as, well, valid. It makes you want to disagree just on principle.<br /><br />You and Susan are funny about Shakespeare! We haven't gotten into Shakespeare on any real kind of level yet, other than to talk about how so many sayings and colloquialisms come from his work.<br />I almost referenced that conversation with the charter school CEO, but I didn't because I DO understand Shakespeare, and I DO laugh in all the right places, and it made me wonder, is knowing that kind of stuff what got me into college? Is that the make-or-break type things that get people ahead and, if so, is it worth teaching even if the students could care less? I felt conflicted about it, so I thought I'd save it for another post.<br /><br />B&B&B - welcome! I love your blog's name, I am off to check it out in more detail shortly :-)<br /><br />I too, like you and Susan and Cristina, can't imagine anything wrong with spending time gardening, with learning about how food grows and proudly making pizza with your own tomatoes or popping your own soybeans like they are popcorn. Gardening is not demeaning, on the contrary it's how humans have survived for so long, it seems more like ownership is the issue here. I think growing your own food is good for you, body and soul, and it's a worthwhile thing for every child to do - but sharecropping, or picking apples for pennies a barrel without access to shade or water, obviously that is bad. And there's quite a large difference between them!<br />It also seems like the author takes issue with such basics as physical education, she never even mentions imaginative or child-directed play, and again I'm left to wonder what she envisions kids in school doing all day?<br /><br />Thanks for sharing your thoughts on such a big issue!<br />:-)<br />KarenKarenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09033206940045546960noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6135821839792630912.post-3955100412933688092010-01-18T21:38:04.814-05:002010-01-18T21:38:04.814-05:00I was insulted that she started off the article wi...I was insulted that she started off the article with a reference to a Hispanic man, delving into his life only to have his child working in a garden. There is absolutely nothing wrong with making an honest living. There is nothing wrong with having your children understand what you do for a living, or what you have done. Of course the Latino and African-American students are doing better at a charter school! There are simply more resources there. Charter schools get a signficantly increased amount of financial help than public schools do. Sure, this country is obsessed with making good food choices and teaching our youth such. Shouldn't we be? Hostess, Edy's, super-sized, huge portions and a gigantic innundation of a variety of media can be to blame (partially) for our fast-food-nation. This woman really upset me. I had to force myself to read through her extensively wordy rant about hating gardening in schools. We get it. You did your research on Alice. You obviously do not like her or her ideas. The comment about parents who speak no or very little English coming to volunteer at the school as demeaning is preposterous. A garden is less intimidating than a classroom can be. There is just something calming about gardening. At least I think so. Last year we put in a garden at our new home. It was wonderful. Our children learned that food does not simply and magically appear in the store. My two-year-old would step into the garden to grab some basil to chomp on whenever he felt like it. It was so amazing. A garden is beautiful.my3ninjashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09685561431329549339noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6135821839792630912.post-83558361931788477682010-01-18T20:52:13.015-05:002010-01-18T20:52:13.015-05:00Aw man! I was going to make the crack about my dau...Aw man! I was going to make the crack about my daughter laughing in the right places when she reads Shakespeare. One summer she carried our copy of the first folio around. Usually while she was...um...gardening.<br /><br />It took long enough for the author to get to her agenda. In one of the last paragraphs she mentions she is the mother of elementary school students. She obviously has them on the fast track and is afraid a gardening program in middle school will set them back.<br /><br />I found her tone condescending and insulting. Just because many of these families are poor and English is their second language does not mean they are clueless about good food. My father grew up dirt poor in Puerto Rico and he still did a good job of instilling ideas of good nutrition in us. If we didn't follow it, it was more the lure of neighborhood candy stores and commercials full of sugary cereals that swayed us. At least these kids are growing their own food and might actually eat it for that reason.<br /><br />I'd better get off my soapbox now. :o)<br /><br />Peace and Laughter!jugglingpayneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10921293051956441475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6135821839792630912.post-36422698276098459872010-01-18T20:27:24.811-05:002010-01-18T20:27:24.811-05:00I was howling at the guinea hen (had some last wee...I was howling at the guinea hen (had some last week) and tarte tatin (we make them often) and yet I had to come around towards the end to see Flanagan's point, to some extent. <br /><br />The idea that fruits and vegetables are unavailable in the hood for instance, is pure fiction. When I went to school in South Central LA there was a great Ranch 99 with an astounding variety at great prices. My friend lived nearby and a handy fruit and vegetable truck drove through the neighborhood every evening. All we ever get in our neighborhood is an occasional ice cream truck. <br /><br />If my kids were at school I'd like them to have a garden. My husband asked what makes a garden good for our kids and not good for California's poor.<br /><br />And this is what I think it is. Flanagan asks the CEO of a group that runs 15 successful charter schools in South Los Angeles what he thinks about the Edible Schoolyard. He says, "The only question in education reform that's worth anything is this: What are you doing to prepare these kids for college? If I can get a kid to read Shakespeare and laugh at the right places, I can get him to college."<br /><br />My kids are in a Shakespeare production. They've been to see Midsummer Night's Dream. They read it and laugh in the right places. They're in 4th and 6th grade. Their home life is college prep. <br /><br />And while we have the luxury to worry about whether they are creative, engaged and fulfilled, the objective for poor kids is simply to get out of the cycle of poverty, get a good job with benefits, so the generation after can eat tarte tatin, read the Atlantic and plant a garden.Susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04779866178920345344noreply@blogger.com